Here's a cross-section of the comments we received from those who voted. No previous Nose 2 Nose or Challenge we have done has brought in so many comments, from so many different people: parents, youth coaches, college and ex-pro players, professional instructors, etc. We appreciate them all but were forced to cull the list down to some of our favorite insights. If we didn't include your comments here, maybe next time.

---

First, a comment that seems to capture the essence of each author's contribution....

Author # 1 seems to somewhat contradict himself about weighted balls. He's against it but if velocity increase is the goal, it probably works. Yeah, why else would you use weighted balls if not to increase velocity. I certainly agree that weighted balls is not to improve mechanics, although I do agree w/author # 2 that weighted balls can assist w/balance. Of course, weighted balls should not be used if mechanics are poor. 

Author # 4 is very old school, not that that in itself is bad. There are great lessons to be learned by studying baseball tradition.  However, this guy isn't willing to learn from the new school, which only perpetuates how slow our game is to change.  I do agree that pitchers don't throw enough, especially off the mound.  And author # 5 put it very succinctly:  pitchers pitch too much & throw too little. 

Author # 6 tells how we can learn from the old school by citing Sandy Koufax & just get the feel of throwing, uncontrained by mechanics or accuracy.  And author # 7 reinforces that throwing weighted balls must only be done w/proper mechanics. Richard, this is a great idea!!!  I can't wait for the results - Ron Moore


I have reviewed my childhood to try and understand why I was able to through so hard. Starting very early throwing newspapers, big newspapers (age 6). Having a father who wanted to play catch all the time with little games he called burn-out (seeing who could try and knock each other down.) Which I eventually won later in life! He liked to see how far we could throw the ball, also 'everyday'. Throwing the baseball is something we did everyday, if it rained outside we threw in the house. When we weren't throwing the baseball, we would throw the football. But after one year of pro ball I tore my rotator cuff and in 1972 that meant you were done. Yes I threw harder than most at that time, but I didn't know anything about mechanics. I'm now a pitching instructor who uses video analysis to break down my students mechanics. Also I use many different techniques from all the guru's. Tom House, Dick Mills, Bagonzi, Thurston, all of them have studied many years and to discount their knowledge is ridiculous. But creating the ultimate fastball is very shortlived without outstanding mechanics.. I appreciated each authors input but I believe ego's are getting in the way of truth. Take something positive from every instructor and shape it to fit each student's needs because believe it or not they are not all created equal and what works for one may not work for another. - Chuck Bancroft

---

As a certified movement analyst and coach of multiple sports I most agree with the #2 author who values personal experimentation even if it goes against what he believes. I value biomechanical movement analysis research and motor learning research when developing training for athletes in sport but I am always open to new information and experimenting and keeping track of quantitative and qualitative information on how a player responds to training methods. This is part of the science of training better athletes. -  Gerald Gowan

---

I have no test data. I work with mostly young (10 - 16 year old) pitchers.
First and foremost is technique.  Teach the basic fundamental mechanics (Thurston) then throw, throw, throw with that technique. When I work with them, hip rotation is taught and exercises for practice of hip rotation are encouraged.  Those who master it pitch faster than those who do not.  Hopefully, I can get them to a place where one of these specialists can get them above 80 mph without arm damage. - Terry Doucet


A long toss program, weight training and flat ground work to develop pitchers.  I am a high school pitching coach and have worked with youth pitchers from ages 9-21 for 12 years. Pitcher development demands repetition to develop the skill and resistence training to develop the strength.  Over the past 7 years, pitchers who have participated in year round flat ground, long toss, weight training, and used proper trowing mechanics have developed faster and progressed further than those who have taken time off.  Those serious about their training regimen have been prone to less arm injury.  We typically develop six pitchers to get two who can compete consistently.  The two deciding factors in success are 1) those that taake their training seriously and do it religiously, and 2) being mentally prepared to compete.  Skill and strength gives our pitchers the ability to compete.  Their mental approach gives them the "will" to compete.  We have had several magnificent physical specimens who have been faithful to their training, have had great bullpen sessions and occasional good performances in competition, but have not been competitors.  Pressures of the game will cause them to lose focus and pitch poorly.  We have not used weighted balls, but after reading these articles, I'm convinced we need to include this in our program to give our pitchers the best possible chance to develop their abilities and strength. Enjoyed reading the articles and participating in the survey. - Rob DeMara

---

I believe from examples and observation that weighted balls and long toss can be helpful. The challenge is to understand when and how to apply these training methods.  Can someone simplify it for us coaches?  What do we look for to see if our throwers are thriving on a program?  - Ken Botelho

---

As a high school coach for the past 11 years, all of these work except for the constant mound work. I've used a combination of these for 11 years and never had a serious arm injury or pitcher who could not pitch. While some players progress faster, this usually depends on the work ethic of the player. I believe you must know your players and their particular strength and weaknesses.  I believe in moderation in pitching off a mound, but if a player throws long toss everyday they will increase arm strengh. - Jon Mathew

---

I played recreational ball for many years and am now coaching Little League for the past 6 yrs.  It makes a lot of sense that a youngster could hurt himself using weighted balls.  That doesn't mean that I think they have no place in training.  Without more guidance I would not trust myself to monitor my son's training with weighted balls.  Perhaps in a few years when he reaches the high school level and his growth plates are stronger I'll follow a program with him that includes weighted balls.  As for doing long toss and off the mound training, well that goes without saying. - John Mackenzie

---

The human body is complex, everyone is differant and changes over time. We have major muscle groups as well as stabilizer muscles involve and they need to be balanced. Just as the body builder varies the exercise, reps, sets, rest periods; so to the pitcher needs variance. Improper form is the biggest precursor to injury for the bodybuilder and the pitcher.  We know what is harmful mechanics wise for a pitcher and that each pitcher is differant, so we need to find the proper machanical move ment for each pitcher, then we can add strength, velocity techniques. - Joe B.


Every pitcher is different! I played in the minors before tearing a rotator cuff, and then realizing I wanted to settle down and get a real job :) . Every Pitcher has been improved from my experience and looking at every person as an individual and not trying to force 'one motion' when it will clearly not work. There is no single answer! - Mike Vander

---

I grew up on long toss (and burnout!) and pitched through HS, moved to outfield in college, but 30 years later I can still throw 100+ pitches for batting practice to 12 & 13 year olds and I expect to continue next year with the 14 eyar olds.  My legs get tired but my arm is fine.  I'm just beginning to understand/endorse the weighted balls approach.  We're starting out cautiously but open minded. - bard strong

---

I think most of these ideas can all be utilized to enhance the pitchers you are working with. I like long toss, did it myself, and was a part of my pre game warmup in games I pitched in. I like to do uphill training in which my pitchers climb the back side of the mound and throw to a target 35 feet away. We do giddyups to get more momentum in our pitchers workout. Have not used weighted balls but employ some weighted balls in arm conditioning exercises. I think the guy who wrote article 4 is a pissed off old guy. I don't get him at all. Guys don't throw harder today? Is this guy for real? Of course these pitchers are throwing harder today and the Radar guns prove a lot of things these days. That is pure fact. - Kevin Goodman

---

As a college pitcher, i feel pregame long-toss is important to loosen up the arm, though a direct correlation between it and velocity, I have yet to see in myself or my peers. Weighted balls mainly just make my arm hurt, I've noticed no significant gains (though as a sidearmer, there might be a difference in mechanics that affects this, I'm not exactly certain, my knowledge isn't as extensive as i would like it to be). Flat ground work and mechanical repetition is a must in my opinion. It is non-threatening to the arm, and it is easier to spot flaws if tutored by the right coach. I would say I'm a proponent of weight-lifting, but not to the extreme that it hinders flexibility. Light work, particularly with freeweights on the rotator cuff, bicep and in the legs & calves, is a positive though. Above all else I believe is cardio. You can't run enough, you need stamina. That's my two cents, as arguably the only sabermetrically-inclined pitcher in college ball, haha. - Dave

---

Long toss, off a mound, has given me the best results.  I feel more comfortable, and my mechanics and balance canbe practiced and aren't thrown off. Also, if i can hit a spot at 90 ft., i shouldn't miss from 60.6. - Trace


It is amazing how dogmatic advocates can be on diammetrically opposed concepts.  I am still learning in attempting to coach my 9 year old son.  I wish I knew when I was young enough to pitch what I know now that I cannot physically still pitch.  Great forum! -  Dan Pelletier

---

  I also think that a long toss program can improve arm strength.  Almost every sport has to use some sort of strength training exercises to be an elite player. - Pat McGraw
 

---

I am no expert but I can see a very noticable difference in my own son over the last 6 months since we began a regiment of weighted balls and long tossing.  He is only 11 and we are using balls only 1 -3 oz. heavier, but there is a very noticable increase in his arm strength and velocity during this time.  In previous years, he did not have the arm strength/velocity to pitch, now he does. -  Ray Secord

---

My son is in a pitching progam which uses weighted balls and he has improved his velocity by 8mph in a very short period of time. But I did notice a reduction in velocity during the season when dropped out of the pitching program. - JB Ambeau

---

As a parent/coach of a 15 y/o pitcher I believe that overweight training and long toss with emphasis on mechanics is key to arm health and durability. Instructor #7 was most believeable. - Richard Jones

---

While I need to read some books and watch some videos, what seems important is the abillity to incorporate theory into an intelligent training regimen. I am the father of two pitchers, 13 and 10. Both have fairly strong arms. The ten-year-old has had more consistent training in mechanics, which seems to have paid off in velocity and endurance, although I limit the ten-year old so endurance is a relative term. We do not use weighted balls. We do use long-toss. My ten-year old probably throws more long-toss than most kids his age and is a solid ten-year-old in the San Diego/SoCal baseball mecca. - Dan Baits

---

I have read just about every book or article (and this well done site) I could get my hands on over the past year to help my 11 year old Son SAFELY develop as a pitcher. In this quest we are NOT in a hurry, nor do I want him throwing lots of innings at this point. Quality is better than quantity. We work constantly on mechanics, flat mound work, long toss, conservative use of weighted baseballs and stretch tubing. All with rest periods after heavy work outs. He does not throw a lot of innings early in the season and is working up to his max of 6 innings per week as we get toward the end of the season. Early on he worked with a pitching coach to develop proper mechanics and now he gets periodic "check ups" on his mechanics. Without question the best book is Dr. Bagonzi's, although he could add more material for the younger pitcher. (Sounds like a great follow up book). He can throw a curve, slider, and cut fastball, none of which he throws in games, only to learn how a ball breaks and to learn proper mechanics. He is working mostly on hitting spots with a two and four seam fastball, and his change-up. He has learned how to throw a 'knuckle-curve' which he uses as his change. As with anything in life, common sense has been driving factor in his development, together with something that needs to be mentioned more....HAVING FUN. (as well as accepting success AND failure as learning opportunities. He has moved slowly up the ranks over the past two years from just one just the many average pitchers, to one of the top 4 pitchers in the 11-12 majors in his league. - David Griffith

---

I think weighted balls have a negative effect on mechanics.  I believe that throwing is how arms get stronger.  I am also a proponet of weightlifting, provided that the focus is on whole body training.  That is, working to achieve a strength balance, particularly of the legs and core. -  Jason Karegeannes

---

Weighted balls should not be done until the arm has been prepared for that.  (dynamic warm-up, tubing). But weighted balls can and will improve velocity.

Long Toss should be thrown as long as you can possible throw 2 - 3 times a week. Nolan Ryan used to un-load a bucket and throw from three spots: behind the mound, behind second, and centerfield. He would throw and bucket as hard as he could on a line into the back stop.  Both of these can help improve the conditioning of the arm (helping you go longer in games) but probably will not increase velocity. Weights can help improve strength to help avoid injury, in the shoulder and arm.  But lifting for size can do more harm than good.  If the muscles get to big to quick, your ligaments, tendons, ect. do not grow as fast as the muscle, causes tears in those areas - Justin

---

[Ed.Note: This writer guessed wrong about one of the contributors, but his points are still valid.]  Leo Mazzone makes for an interesting case, doesn't he?  I mean, on the one hand, everything he says makes loads of sense -- pitching uses muscles, muscles can only be developed by exercise, so more throwing (in the right circumstances) makes one a better pitcher. Doesn't explain all those Tommy John surgeries his pitchers have had, though. Tough to say, but what I do believe is that over-coaching at early ages takes a lot of the fun out of the game.  To a 10-year-old, throwing is fun.  To a 16-year-old, throwing is fun.  Listening to another adult try to tell you *how* to throw?  Not fun.  So, you want to raise (and/or coach) the next great major league pitcher?  Fine.  Start with a love of the game.  Get out there after work and throw with him for 20 minutes.  Just throw.  Don't have him get on a mound.  Don't have him work on his cutter.  Just throw.  - Ben Lea

---

As has been said many times over, no one method is perfect. I don't think any one method can stand alone. Depending on the season, the age group, the experience level (mental and physical), programs are developed for that time and place.  That being said, one still has to have an end result in focus. The larger ultimate goal is to assist the pitcher achieve his maximum efficiency, velocity and command without comprimising the health of his arm.  I often tell coaches not to overuse young little league pitchers. They may not reach the level of professional baseball but it would be nice if they were able to play as an adult in their local softball league without destruction of an elbow, rotator cuff area because of an overzealous, unknowlegdeable coach. - Rich Monahan

---

Overuse pitching (esp. from mound) is bad, strains and/or ruins arms, potential, opportunity. Flat ground, long toss is good to capacity. Weighted balls (shape is important) are okay if thrown with proper technique for size and weight in use. Do not overtrain this way. Same with weights. I think flexibility was understated in importance. - Tim Green  [Ed.Note: The comment about flexibility may be very important and something we intend to look into more in the future.]

---

He pitched for 25 years in the major leagues with an injured elbow.  He refused surgury and just let it heal.  He attributes his longevity to a strict off-season and in-season weight training program. Confucius say: When you see a worthy person, endeavor to emulate him. And also: Life is really simple, but men insist on making it complicated. - Michael Richards

---

The controversy over weighted balls will never be resolved.  It is the quest for speed.  Bob Feller was born with it.  A kid that throws an 85 mph fastball with good mechanics will never be a Randy Johnson, regardless of how hard he trains or methods employed. - Stan Graham

---

We would like to do more long tossing on a regular basis, but other sports and activities are time constraints. I come from another sport discipline (tennis) with similar myths/clichés/traditions that are thankfully being challenged and studied, so I can relate and sympathize with the struggles involved. We have a saying: "new information upsets a lazy mind" that summarizes part of the problem out there. Coaches need to serve their players, and that means continual learning and being comfortable with being uncomfortable! The metamorphosis that coach #2 (Then and Now) went through is an example of the kind of teachers we would all like to have or to be: unafraid to admit mistakes and more concerned with moving forward than holding onto traditional beliefs. There were good points made by every coach, but not on every topic. I particularly liked seeing studies backing up the statements to lend credence. It's not about the coaches being right ... it's about what's best for their players. Thanks for the thought-provoking cross-section of opinions. - Roger Darrohn  [Ed.Note: You're welcome!]